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ZOMG XBOX360 VS. PS3 VS. WII ZOMG

Discussion in 'Debates' started by vigteo, Apr 5, 2008.

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  1. Hypr

    Hypr Well-Known Member

    Yeah, your information is all crap because it only represents sales in Japan, not worldwide. Present data of all sales in other countries, and then we might take you seriously.

    And for the record, all your posts that you made here are moot as they are void of evidence and logic, not to mention that people like me have found evidence that contradict your claims. That's what happens when you spout off bullshit without checking the facts.

    And now, here you are trying to use information that represent only a small portion of consumers just to support your argument. Sorry, that's not going to help your case at all.

    Let me point you to this article: Uncharted 2 Sells Over 300,000 on Day One in America

    [​IMG]
    Well, look at that! There's even a chart that shows PS3 games that are being sold like hotcakes worldwide for the opening weeks. And key phrase, since you are a slow, inept person, that's for THE OPENING WEEK.

    And on top of that, some damning evidence against your argument that shows that people ARE in fact, buying PS3 for games: PS3 sales increase 25% in Americas as Uncharted 2 sells 440,000.

    So, how many arguments of yours Ultra have I debunked with counter evidence? Whatever, go get me my coffee.
     
  2. asdzxc123789

    asdzxc123789 Well-Known Member

    YAY HYPR IS BACK!
    HES SO AWESOME!
     
  3. mds64

    mds64 Well-Known Member

    He may be harsh-but he is correct...

    But..I over look sales...for personal preferance.

    Nintendo for life-even with a psp-it's filled with emulators.

    Even with a ps2-It has games that were destined for cube :(

    Even with my laptop...emulators, and games that...I'm just not so lucky to get.

    I don't need a ps3-my laptop can do it all-except for certain ps3 games I want...

    *COUGH*MGS4*COUGH*

    Meh-Resident evil 5 is all I need...and youtube :)
     
  4. asdzxc123789

    asdzxc123789 Well-Known Member

    and some pie, maybe?

    But really, only thing Ps3 can give you at any time is exclusive games.
     
  5. mds64

    mds64 Well-Known Member

    Just one really...

    All others I disregard...

    But...I wish my dam laptop could do dead space...oh well.
     
  6. ultra

    ultra Guest

    why is hypr including charts from outside japan when i'm specifically looking at the sales of japan?

    when i posted that japanese sales chart, it's to show you that the wii sales in japan is based not on the price reduction but because of the release of wii fit plus. how so, because you are seeing gains from both wii fit plus and the sales of wii systems. this means that wii fit plus is selling the hardware. it's the similar effect when wii sports resort was released, that you saw an increase in wii sports resort and an increase in wii consoles. but when you look at the ps3, it tells us that people are buying because of the price and are using it for other possible causes such as using it as a blu-ray player, a multimedia hub or somewhere in between. the reference that ps3 sales are up and yet there are no ps3 software in that chart justifies that people are using the ps3 for other purposes or that it's a repurchase of the system from existing owners of ps3 systems.

    uncharted 2 may have reached that 1million mark, but that is due to hype. when hype dies, so does the sale of the game. hype only lasts for so long and this is why even though that uncharted 2 reached 1 million, it means nothing because it's the long term, not the short term. look at mario kart wii and smash brothers and even nintendo ds games, they have been out in the market for over a year and they are still selling without hype. look at bionic commando for ps3/360, there is no hype and the game is doing terrible. there are stores selling bionic commando for $20. again, look at fable 2 from last year, it had so much hype for 1 month and after that it just died out. short term is okay but it's the long term that makes the winner.

    uncharted 2 in japan sold 47,000, http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/16/uncharted-2-sells-well-in-japan-despite-unsightly-handicap/. it means it wasn't a system seller. it means it's a failed software because it didn't help sell the system. remember that as a hardware and software company such as nintendo, sony and microsoft, the success of the company is the number of hardware sold and not the number of software. sony releasing uncharted 2 and it does push console sales means a lot of things for many of the romulation members to think about.
     
  7. Rayder

    Rayder Well-Known Member

    To me, it's a toss-up between the PS3 and 360. Wii isn't even in the same league, IMO.

    I would say 360, but with all the failures the system has (RRoD) I'd have to go with the PS3, regardless of how much I hate Sony.
     
  8. Hypr

    Hypr Well-Known Member

    Tsk tsk tsk...

    You commit a hasty generalization fallacy yet again. How many times have you violated that logical fallacy in this debate? Isn't this the THIRD TIME now?

    Sales in Japan, for your information, do not reflect on how well it does worldwide. And by worldwide, that is the absolute total sales from everywhere across the globe, which includes big gaming consumer nations like Japan, United States, and Europe. Which is why I included sales statistics of sales worldwide as it gives a complete picture of how the games are doing all over the globe. Sales of games in one country only tell a part of the story, but never the complete story.

    Proof that you didn't read my post AT ALL. You're stuck in your own "Nintendo rocks and Sony sucks" world. Get your head out of your ass and realize that people that are purchasing the PS3 are seeing something good in that system. Which includes games.

    For your information, Bionic Commando got a 72% rating overall. Which is mediocre. So of course, if a mediocre game gets over hyped, the demand and value of that particular game is bound to nosedive. However, if you take a look at Uncharted 2's reviews and ratings, it got a whopping 96% overall rating. Which makes it qualify for the Top 10 games of all time. At the time of this post, Uncharted 2 is ranked 9 overall in the top 10. Yeah, it must be the hype despite the fact that the ones who took the time to play it fell in love with the gameplay.

    Also, how many Wii games have claimed the Top 50 list? Only two.
    How many XBox 360 games claimed the Top 50 list? Four.
    How many PS3 games claimed the Top 50 list? Also, four.

    I would love to see how you would talk yourself out of this statistic here. Isn't evidence and statistical proof a bitch, especially when they show that you are just talking out of your own ass, Ultra?

    And just to stomp on Wii's balls because I can, let's do a top ten game comparison for each console:

    First one up, the Wii. Let's see how many of Wii's top ten games got at least 90% overall rating:

    [quote author=Gamerankings.com-Wii]All-Time Best
    1. Super Mario Galaxy 97.30%
    2. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess 94.28%
    3. World of Goo 93.95%
    4. Super Smash Bros. Brawl 92.65%
    5. Metroid Prime Trilogy 92.18%
    6. Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition 91.24%
    7. Rock Band 2 91.00%
    8. Guitar Hero 5 90.00%

    9. Okami 89.81%
    10. The Beatles: Rock Band 89.79%[/quote]

    Hmm, 8 out of 10. Not bad. But let's see how the PS3 did since you appear to have a lot of beef on that system.

    [quote author=Gamerankings.com-PS3]All-Time Best
    1. Grand Theft Auto IV 97.31%
    2. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 96.02%
    3. LittleBigPlanet 94.50%
    4. LittleBigPlanet: Game of the Year Edition 94.50%
    5. BioShock 93.81%
    6. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 93.67%
    7. Street Fighter IV 93.27%
    8. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots 93.14%
    9. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 92.98%
    10. Batman: Arkham Asylum 92.00%
    [/quote]

    Well, look at that. ten out of fucking top ten PS3 games got over 90%. And as a bonus, the PS3's number one title beat Wii's number one title by 0.01%. On top of that, PS3's number one title claimed rank 2 on the Top 50 all time list. Well, we now know that the Wii is getting its ass handed by the PS3's games in overall ratings. And there's nothing to dispute here given the fact that Gamerankings.com takes all ratings and reviews written by all independent game review sites and organizations.

    I bet you'll be damned if the XBox 360 pulls a perfect slammer just like the PS3 did, right?

    [quote author=Gamerankings.com-Xbox360]All-Time Best
    1. Grand Theft Auto IV 96.36%
    2. The Orange Box 96.18%
    3. BioShock 94.99%
    4. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 94.17%
    5. Gears of War 93.88%
    6. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 93.87%
    7. Halo 3 93.37%
    8. Street Fighter IV 93.28%
    9. Gears of War 2 93.23%
    10. Fallout 3 92.77%
    [/quote]

    Xbox 360's top ten games are also all above 90%.

    GG Ultra. Would you like to play again (Y/N)?
     
  9. mds64

    mds64 Well-Known Member

    Ultra-as much as I'd like to help-being a nintendo hardcore fan-but you might need to include proof to show him up-he has a point.

    In australia-it seems wii is winning-but at the same time-many wii owners here own 2-all 3 consoles.

    Are we rich or dumb...totally different question.

    From what I read-the wii WAS doing well.

    But...I heard it's slowing down in japan-some ps3 sales are starting to catch up (but that was months ago-HYPR's list seems more recent)




    HYPR-is there is list of actually hardware sales rather than these software lisings?

    I'll just grab the following...

    http://vgchartz.com/weekly.php

    Not sure if that's in just a few days for wii fit.

    Seems like wii fit is doing some work for nintendo...

    http://vgchartz.com/hwlaunch.php?cons1=Wii&reg1=All&cons2=PS3&reg2=All&cons3=X360&reg3=All&weeks=156

    This supports nintendo's progress it seems.


    But...like anyone-I only know it's because of early progress.

    From what I heard-the wii is slowing down-and yet it's still strong.


    It's because there is "kinda" more games on ps3.

    And if your wondering-I'm not including the shovel ware that has disgraced the wii.

    And personally...


    I find reviews from BIG websites to be a load of bull-even magazines.

    My old fav nintendo magazine (nintendo magazine system-or NMS) once gave 99% to "South park" on n64...

    Load of crap that was!


    And 100% to turok 2...Sure big stages are fun but....TOO BIG!

    Maybe 80% would suit.


    I'm not even gonna go towards gamespot/faqs-they have turned me away from games that I enjoyed almost (read a review-turned me away-years later I find in bargin bin and...enjoy them better than the top 10!).


    Sorry HYPR-as much as your correct...those are using general scores based on websites and such-I prefer spoken word...or as I prefer more.

    To get down and play them myself-or youtube it.



    And ULTRA-you need to hit him with world wide evidence or otherwise HYPR is gonna keep shoving it back...


    [me=mds64]walks out slowly but carefully[/me]
     
  10. Hypr

    Hypr Well-Known Member

    Mds64,

    I already have established the fact that the Wii is beating the PS3 and the Xbox360 in hardware sales. There is no way for either the PS3 or the Xbox360 to catch up as the Wii is beating them both by a long shot.

    I have already cited two reasons why the Wii has gotten the most hardware sales: one, it was and is the cheapest console system on the video game market, and two, the gimmick features of the Wii drove video game consumers in. I have already cited a source that shows this, and I can't give two shits to go back to my posts to show it again as I am now on a break time at work.

    In order for the Xbox360 to catch up, Microsoft will need to upgrade the Arcade console hardware and features AND maintain its low price tag. For the PS3, Sony needs to keep reducing prices. Which is almost impossible as Sony is pretty close to its breaking point.

    Cheap prices of console hardware have already been established as the key to winning this next gen console competition, given the fact that the global economy is in a recession (which I already cited in a past post). People don't have much money to spend on leisure things as they did a decade ago. Which is why people are driven to buy the Wii as it has a lot more bang to offer for its buck.

    There's a reason why I cited Gamerankings.com as my source. Gamerankings.com is a compilation of ALL independent reviews and ratings for each game, good or bad. All the reviews found published by Gamerankings get averaged into an overall rating. That's how that site works. Whenever a new review is found for a particular game, they update the average for that game. Best of all, Gamerankings doesn't play favorites, which boosts their credibility of being a non-biased resource.

    I would never rely on a single review source to back up a claim on why a certain game is good; all reviews are subjective, which is a given fact, (and I'm certain you already know this first-hand.) But, by showing multiple independent review sources that praise or boo that particular game, it gives more credible support to your claims as you are not basing it off of just one single review which can easily be countered by another independent review that says the opposite.

    By the way, Turok 2 got an 89%. Lowest rating given by an independent review was a 78% by Gaming Age. Regarding Nintendo Power, it's not considered an independent source (obviously!) as it is affiliated with Nintendo.
     
  11. ultra

    ultra Guest

    do you know that game reviews and game rankings mean absolutely nothing at all. value is not determined by some persons perspective of a game and saying that it is a .../10 score is a good game. people or ,in this case, the consumers give value to the game. i told you before, value is determined by the people and not by some game critic. i liked that game rygar for the ps2 but others do not. it doesn't mean it's a bad game, it means people have different views and taste. this is what makes the wii great.

    uncharted 2 has a 9+/10 rating according to some person. if the game is good then it must be selling like crazy and driving the sales of the sony ps3 console. but no one is rushing out the door and buying the ps3 simply for the game. if people were really wanting uncharted 2, the sales of the ps3 hardware would correspond with the increase of uncharted 2 software sales. just as how i showed that wii fit plus showed an increase in sales and an increase in wii console sales. it tells you that wii fit plus has an effect where people are going out to buy a wii simply because they want to play wii fit and wii fit plus and the only to play that game is on the wii.

    ps3 sales are up because of the price. people are not simply buying it for a game system but are using it for other purposes such as an htpc or multimedia hub as it has the bluray and the usb which lets people play videos, music, etc.... if hardware sales are up, so should software sales. but all we see are an increase in hardware sales and little to nothing in software.

    btw, do you know how you show value? by sales. if you look at again mario kart wii and mario kart ds along with smash brothers brawl, they are still selling after months being released. not only does the number prove that people like the game but it is still selling after months being in the market. what game on the ps3/360 can do that? now the problem with the ps3/360 is that they do make big sales but it's how you look at it. look at fable 2 again, it had sold like 2.5million last year and that was it. sales of fable 2 hasn't gotten higher. it means hype is used for sales and once hype is over, it means that was the drive for the sales and that means it was a bad game without hype. this is why i said the longer term is king. it shows you the successors from the losers. look at some of the ds games, they have been released a long time ago and are still selling. it keeps selling because it shows that the consumers find that particular game to have high value. again, only consumers determine value, not some game critic. i'm fine that natawlie didn't like what the wii had to offer because according to her standard of value, what the wii offer wasn't to her liking. but to others it's different.

    here is a quote from mds64,
    "...Sorry HYPR-as much as your correct...those are using general scores based on websites and such-I prefer spoken word...or as I prefer more.

    To get down and play them myself-or youtube it...."

    you've read mds64's comment, he doesn't see the quality of the game according to those critics. the point is that only he is able to make what is good and bad.

    uncharted 1 sold 2.1 million according to vgchartz. it was released two years ago, where is the sales today? again, it doesn't matter that uncharted 2 had 1+ million sales this month or whatever, what matters is the long term effect. i can tell you that it won't keep selling because once hype dies, so do sales of the game.

    keep your mind open about motion controller as the future is on motion controller. with all the people who bought the wii, it means they want motion controller to be the new controller.

    watch this video,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT3UhAUkKQU

    and watch this video,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGlvLQzvJNA

    do you notice anything here people?!
     
  12. Hypr

    Hypr Well-Known Member

    See that red-bolded statement there? None of your statements in this paragraph, as well as your entire post do anything to support it. This is a weak argument that doesn't belong in this paragraph at all.

    Serious question Ultra. What is your current education level? Doesn't your school teach you anything about writing solid arguments with constructive support? This is pitifully awful, as this is something I would expect from a kid attending elementary grade school.

    But what can I say? After all, you don't even know the most fundamental concept of English grammar: capitalizing the first letter of the first word of each sentence!

    Again, you're not even reading my posts at all Ultra. I already cited a source that shows PS3 sales are increasing as sales for Uncharted 2 game are increasing as well. Read that article and weep, bitch.

    Now, this is where your argument starts crumbling apart. You have just contradicted yourself via another statement:
    You've stated here that hype can also influence the sales of the game itself. How the fuck then do sales accurately represent the "quality" of the game? Explain your contradiction, and don't even dare try dodging this one. I won't allow you to get away with this.

    It's just like saying that I can sell dog shit to people for X amount of dollars or pennies. And hypothetically speaking, I get 200,000 people to buy dogshit from me worldwide within the first week. And as the year approaches, I get 10 million sales. And by that time, I can boast that I sold 10 million pieces of dogshit just to continue to boost sales. However, what does that prove about the quality of my dogshit? Absolutely fucking nothing at all.

    Also, case in point: Top-Selling games that suck. And another example: "Best-selling crap". This goes back to Natalie's argument that quantity does not equal quality.

    First off, where is your proof that the Wii and DS games are continuously selling? I have asked you a lot of times to provide statistical proof, yet you choose to never present it.

    Also Ultra, if you read my last post (in response to Mds64), you would know that the fact that the Wii console has long outsold both, the PS3 and the XBox 360 has already been established.

    Actually, it's both. The consumers don't determine value of the game by buying the game; they determine value by providing their own feedback. And guess who else can provide feedback besides consumers? The game critics that have tried the game as well. And no, not one single game critic can determine the value of the game, but a majority can. And if you take a look at Gamerankings.com, a majority of game critics have given Uncharted 2 a very high acclaimed review score.

    Not like any of that matters as you are some dyslexic moron that does selective reading and nitpicking, and to top it all off, mount on more bullshit to support your false claims.

    See my last post. I've already explained and dispelled Mds64's beliefs.

    Again, you are overlooking the factor of people that have or don't have the PS3. And on top of that, not many people that can afford the Wii can afford to dig deeper to purchase a PS3 console.

    I suggest you start taking an economics class. You entirely missed the point that both, Natewlie and I have made.
     
  13. ultra

    ultra Guest

    you know how those games still sell? when sites like kotaku posts those sales figures and you sometimes see a top 20 list or some sort of top list, you often see those old games on that list. that list is a sales list and not a ranking list. the fact that games released from last year and are on that list tells you that it is still selling. http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240286, look here. wii fit package was released last year and it's still selling as it's on that top 20 list. there is no hype on wii fit package and it's still selling. what games from last year are still selling on the ps3/360 without hype? tell me. none. they don't appear there and hype is the key for selling ps3/360 games. once hype dies, so do sales. it tells you that these games sucks because it requires hype to sell and not the pure quality of the software that people see.

    on that list of bad games, the pc community wouldn't consider counter strike a bad game. i like the comment about wii play, that people bought it for the controller. why would people spend $50 as oppsed to $40 for the controller? people bought it for the game, the controller was an incentive. wii play is a great game because it's a local multiplayer game. people love local multiplayer. how do you know? ask pc gamers where they go to party. pc gamers go to lan parties, and lan parties are local multiplayer. the reason why that person gave such a comment about wii play is because he/she is a single player. i own wii play myself and haven't touched it because i have no one to play it with. but when people come over and i put it out, we all end up having a fun time with it.

    quantity over quality. i'm referring to sales of a game, not the abundance of software. shovelware is good because it helps to distinguish what is good and what is bad.

    why are you considering sales of both 360/ps3 as a combined unit sales. they are two different consoles. if you considered 360/ps3 as combined, then you'll might as well throw in the pc as well and the mac. you can even throw in ps2 and xbox 1 sales.

    if the game critic hates the ps3 and likes the 360 or has some bias, then doesn't that mean the rank is skewed? but to hypr it isn't skewed but rather accurate. only the consumers put value on the product, as i have shown the quoted example from mds64. to mds64, he find turok not to the expectations of the critic and that's fine.

    when people bought the wii, it wasn't for the low price point but the motion controller. if you look at that video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGlvLQzvJNA , all those people waiting in line at e3 were strongly interested in trying out motion controller as opposed to dual analog. they didn't care that ps3/360 were going to have super graphics because those things don't matter if you had the new generation of game device, motion controllers. imagine a car company releasing the first flying car as opposed to one who is releasing the 1 million miles per hour car. everyone will jump for the flying car because of it's new features. the software those people at e3 played strongly convinced them that it was a great product. when the product was released, massive people lined up in stores to buy one. people didn't buy the wii because of the low price, if it was then why bother when you can buy a ps2 which is cheaper then the wii and has a bigger library or even better buy nothing.

    "Going back to hardware totals, we know that less people own the PS3 or the XBox 360 compared to the Wii. Therefore, there is no way that any of the PS3 or XBox360 titles will outsell any of the Wii titles? Why? Because it doesn't make sense for any consumer to buy a PS3 or an Xbox360 game when they don't have the hardware console to play it on. Let me ask you this: would you buy a Wii game if you don't have a Wii console yourself? On a second thought, I should probably retract the question, since you have admitted that you fully support Nintendo no matter what."

    you buy the hardware to get the software. you buy a pc to use the software that can run on the pc. but if there is no software, then there is no need to buy the hardware. if no one is buying ps3/360, it means the software is limited. there is no way that ps3/360 games would sell like those on the wii not because of the amount of audiences but rather that the quality of those games are crap. remember, the games on the 360/ps3 relies on hype and without hype, those games won't sell. look at those madden games on the ps3/360, there are a lot of them in gamestop and it shows that those games are crap because it's consumers who return them to get partial value returned.

    it shows value by buying the product and not giving it feedback. you could rent it and still give feedback and you'd never really bought it. you buy it because you, as the consumer, see value in that product and spend money for that product. if you didn't see value then you wouldn't buy it. but if you buy it and found that it lacked what you expect, then you sell it to gamestop to obtain partial value which you lost. the game critic imposes their biases into the product and it's a thought of their opinion and it doesn't merit as value. how is that, because the value of the critic is in accordance to his standards, not mine, not loonys, mds64, seph, etc....

    "you don't even know the most fundamental concept of English grammar: capitalizing the first letter of the first word of each sentence!" this is very typical. i told you before, the hardcore would resort to bashing the person if they become or feel threatened. ASD789 performed labelling, and then resorted to threats. here we see that this person has become a specialist on the english grammar. go to a gaming forum and start a debate, when you write something and there is a grammatical mistake, they will suddenly become language experts. they will also comment on your education as what hypr has done as well. this is why i like romulation, because there is full enforcement and you can see that there is full restraint on these two users.
     
  14. Hypr

    Hypr Well-Known Member

    You're quoting a forum post. Nice try. That information is coming from a user in the community in which he didn't cite a source at all. Go find another source that has the official sales statistics worldwide.

    Actually, let me do you a favor: Latest Weekly Chart from VGChartz. I don't want you referring to any other source besides this one, understand?

    Its funny how you claim that games that are "no longer selling sucks". A pure baseless claim with no examples given. You need to elaborate more on this with more informational support.

    Also, I see you're dodging my contradiction charge against you. You said that you can "measure quality of games through sales". And now you are repeating the contradiction that the hype influences sales of games for a short time again.

    My question from the last post still stands Ultra: explain the contradiction that you just made. How do sales represent quality of games accurately, when certain factors such as hype can interfere with it? Care to answer this one, or would you perhaps prefer to retract this statement altogether?

    If there is anything you should have learned from all of this, sales DO NOT represent quality of the games. I already cited two sources providing counter-examples in which best-selling games were declared poor quality by the gaming community. If those games were awful, then by your logic, people wouldn't be buying those games at all. See the Wii Play example next.

    Ok, this has to be one of the most embarrassing mistakes you've made so far in this debate. Go back to the source and read again. I'm going to give you a chance to redeem and correct yourself. Hint: It's not referring to the PC version of the game.

    Wii Play got a 61% rating overall. Even the majority of a user gaming community of 5000 users polled say its either mediocre, or bad. Just because you and your small sample of friends like the game doesn't mean a lot of people would like the game themselves.

    Take a look at Amazon's Customer Reviews for the Wii Play. Does it look like its receiving top acclaimed remarks from the consumers? While the Wii Play may be a "bestselling item" (keyword for you Ultra: bestselling) its getting mixed reviews, which do not reflect what the sales statistics are implying. And again, this further exemplifies my point that user feedback is a more accurate (but not an absolute) quantifier that measures quality of games.

    And thanks for bringing up the Wii Controller. If you take a look at the user survey, you will see that many people bought the Wii Play bundle for the controller. Do you know the reasoning behind it Ultra? It's because they are consumers that are trying to get more bang for the buck. They thought that a game and controller sold as a bundle was a good deal. That is what suckered those consumers in. It isn't because the Wii Play game was "good"; it's because the Wii Play was sold as an attractive bundle that tricked consumers into thinking that it was somehow a "good deal".

    I also love how you try to cite a small sample of people regarding the Wii Play game (again, no source), but sorry, that is also a logical fallacy, called the Unrepresentative Sample Fallacy. Reason being is because your sample of people that say they "liked the Wii Play" is so ridiculously small that is not sufficient enough to represent a handful of gamers' opinions. Also, not everyone had a chance to participate in that little survey you participated in. Compared to the Gamespot and Amazon statistics I cited, anyone can partake in those surveys anytime.

    And another point, why do you bother using PC gamers as part of a survey? PC gamers do not represent Wii gamers either. This further cements the charge of the Unrepresentative Sample fallacy against you.

    Ahh, so you are now saying quantity of games is more important than quality of games. And you say shovelware is good? This begs the question: what if all the shovelware for any given console is filled with crap quality games? An oxymoron for you!

    And also, you just contradicted yourself yet again. You claimed that the Wii games are still selling because of their "quality", and now, you emphasize "quantity over quality". Looks like you are in a debate with yourself.

    I have never combined both the 360 and the PS3 together. I simply pointed out that the Wii is beating both, the Xbox 360, and the PS3 each by a large margin. You've simply misinterpreted my post, something I should not have to bother with as this isn't productive for this debate at all...

    Hey Ultra, I already pointed out that Gamerankings.com's ratings are compromised of multiple INDEPENDENT sources. That is, not one single review has an affiliation or affinity with any particular gaming industry. To say that such a site is biased is a baseless claim and a cop out. If you want to make such a charge, you will have to comb through hundreds of their review sources and show that each particular source is biased.

    Also, biased sources usually don't make up the majority. So if a biased review gets taken by Gamerankings, it just goes into the average score of all the reviews for that game. What's the worst that can happen to the game's rating on Gamerankings? The rating gets adjusted slightly in either direction. Because it doesn't represent the majority of opinions.

    But, if you want to make a charge that most, if not all sources are biased, then you will have to provide sufficient information and detail showing why each and every source used by Gamerankings is biased. Such a claim is difficult to provide and support, as most suspicions of a "majority bias" are usually speculation and never backed up by factual evidence.

    And regarding the sources that Gamerankings.com uses, they only take professionally written reviews that give full constructive criticism of that particular game reviewed. You know what constructive criticism is? It's an opinion fully supported by reasons and details that explain why the game is good or bad.

    Yes, thank you. I have already cited the motion controller as one of the reasons why the Wii sold along with the Wii Fit. Which are gimmick features. Which is also funny because you accuse of Sony and Microsoft to 'gimmick consumers in with their own versions of their motion controllers'. Speaking of which, your point is?

    Didn't I mention the price factor Ultra? This just shows that you choose to dodge my points instead of making any attempt to address them.

    Both, the PS3 and the standard model of XBox360 each are more expensive than the Wii itself. Given that the economy is in a recession, most consumers are strapped for cash. Do you think shelling out ~$300 for a PS3 or $250 for a standard model of XBox 360 is the consumer's priority if they themselves cannot afford it?

    This goes back to the issue of economy, in which, you have repetitively chosen to dodge yet again.

    And regarding game sales, there you go again mentioning hype influencing sales. You stated that sales measure quality of the games. Just to make sure you don't dodge the contradiction charge I made against you, I'll present the question again: how do sales accurately measure quality of games when it can influenced by such factors such as hype? Answer this or retract your claim. Those are your only two options here.

    Let's clear one thing up here. When I mention "feedback", I'm talking about a personal evaluative opinion given by the consumer him/herself. That opinion may either be kept to oneself, OR expressed onto a public consumer forum, which either is left up to them to decide. So, if a consumer were to buy a game, play it, and then express satisfaction or disappointment about it, that consumer just made his own personal feedback for that game to him/herself. If you played a game and thought to yourself, "hey, this game is great!" or, "What the fuck? This game SUCKS!", you just made your own personal feedback for that game, which happens to be your personal measurement of the quality for that game.

    And this is assuming that we are basing off one single game critic. Which, for the source I've cited, we are not basing off just one game critic, but many. It's a given fact that each person has their own opinion on certain things. Of course, if you have read Gamerankings.com site in full detail, you would know that all rating scores given are based on the average of all reviews submitted, not just one. So if some game critics say the game is great, but a couple of critics say it sucks, it averages out to somewhere in between. And keep in mind that game reviews are also another form of feedback. Which are written out in full detail supporting the reviewer's overall opinion on that particular game.

    That may have worked on ASD789, but that's not going to work on me. Nice try Ultra. You nit-picked those words out of context in which I have criticized your debate skills. Which are abysmal by the way.

    Let me point you to the sticky notice for the Debates Section:

    Take a look at the first two rules for replying. How well have you followed those rules in this debate? How many times have you done research? How many times have you seen my argument supported by well-sourced information?

    Given this, I think its safe to say that you have a lot to learn about debating. You can start by addressing your errors (especially your contradictions!) that I have pointed out. And hopefully, your next reply follows those rules much more closely.
     
  15. dino340

    dino340 Well-Known Member

    In response to Hypr's massive wall of text that this forum has never seen the likes of, I don't think i have seen something as well thought out or properly cited on an internet forum ever. Ultra I would cede this argument to Hypr if I were you.
     
  16. ultra

    ultra Guest

    how do sales accurately measure quality of games when it can influenced by such factors such as hype?

    hype is basically marketing. how do you sell a bad product? mass marketing or hype. go to any game site and you'll see massive hype for many games, one recent game is the batman game. when hype is over, so do sales because there is no marketing or hype [brainwashing] the consumer into buying a bad product. i keep mentioning long term sales and for some reason it's not even getting through. if you look at fable 2 again, during launch, it sold quite a lot and after a certain period [a month or two], sales never went higher because there is no hype. if you look at wii fit package [the balance board and wii fit], after a year it's still selling and there is no hype or marketing after a year and it's still selling. it means those who are buying the wii fit package see something in the game and it's the reason why they spend the money for a wii and the wii fit package. those who aren't buying fable 2 is because they aren't hyped [brainwashed] into buying it.

    look at halo odst, there is so much hype from every site currently and it's selling very well right now due to hype. but once hype dies, sales will not go up because there is no hype [brainwashing] to sell the game. again, it's a bad product in which marketing, hype [brainwashing], is used to promote the sales of the item. how do you know, the long term sales of the item without hype.

    in long term sales, you know you're product is very good if it continues to sell because hype can only go so far. do you think it's possible to constantly market a product for a year and over? it's impossible because people will tune out.

    ---------------------------------------------
    microsoft and sony's motion control is a gimmick because they intend to have the product along their hardware and somehow hope that it convinces the casual gamers to start buying their consoles. but it isn't the hardware that people will buy, but the software. it's software that convinces people to buy the hardware. when you look at the software that sony and microsoft intends to do with their motion controllers is stereotyping the casual gamers. the stereotyping is mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games, mini games.... sony and microsoft has no intentions of making a dedicated game to using the motion controllers. this is why sony and microsofts motion controller is a gimmick, that they are using it as a hope to bait the casuals into buying their hardware and creating afterthough software for the casual gamers.

    sony and microsoft has no intentions of integrating motion controllers into their console. so this concludes that all of their games are still dual analog and the motion controllers are used only for gimmicking the casual gamers and as an afterthought of other things.

    -------------------------------------------
    if the wii's motion controller was a gimmick, then why did so many people continued to buy the console after a year. remember, a gimmick or a fad can only last a short term. over a year is certainly telling you that it isn't a fad or a gimmick. again, a gimmick and a fad is only short term, just as how hype and marketing is only short term. what's even funny is when a guy mapped halo with the motion controller as seen here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk4WLtuf-ME.

    --------------------------------------------
    there is a retro gaming magazine site and in that site they have a nintendo magazine from the first issue to like issue 115 or somewhere there. i checked one of those issue and it had one of those mail comments about the nintendo from the system to the games on the nes. one of the comment was from a senior who was playing zelda and wrote a poem how he is so much in love with that game that his wife get's angry and is jealous of it. if you look at today, there is no console that is doing that other then the wii. this tells you that gaming has moved away from what it was in the past, games that everyone could play and for everyone to enjoy. this tells you that if gaming is to continue in the direction that sony and microsoft were heading, gaming would have truly become seperated and eventually die.

    but of course this is all a wrong somehow.
     
  17. asdzxc123789

    asdzxc123789 Well-Known Member

    Okay If I had like 30 minutes.
    I would quote your every single message.
    And show everyone you are talking about SAME crap
    Over and over again.

    Im just waiting for hyper to do it. Becouse hes so awesome.
     
  18. Hypr

    Hypr Well-Known Member

    Ahh, marketing! Of course! But doesn't that also explain the long-term sales as well? Take a look here: Nintendo's family appeal delivers sales high score. That article points out that there are other factors that influence long-term sales. One factor being, appeal to audience. More specifically, appeal to families and young children. And by young, I'm referring to children 12 and below age group.

    Take a look at this paragraph:
    And now you claim that long-term sales measure the quality of games? Not quite so at all! You've completely ignored other factors that can STILL influence sales, especially long-term sales: appeal to demographics (which I just cited), as well as selling points. Do you remember that Wii Play game I talked about in my last post? The Wii-controller bundled with that game was a selling point towards the consumers, and that game was released on February 13, 2007. And that bundle is STILL SELLING IN THE LONG-TERM (ranked 23rd top-selling game to date of this post) despite the fact that most customers found the game to be mediocre.

    That's not to say that people just buy games because they like it; that is only one factor out of many that influences sales of various games. But, to provide another counter-example to your claim (besides the Wii Play game) that "long term sales measure quality", I would like to point you to a couple of recent disappointing reviews for Mario Kart Wii.

    Mario Kart Wii, just for your information, was released on April 27, 2008 (cited for date only.) Here are a couple of reviews presented in 2009, given around one year after the game's release date:
    And what did you say about the reason that games are sold in the long run? Quality? How WRONG you are! Those consumer reviews that you see right there have shown that those consumers have bought the game with an expectation that the game will be fun and enjoyable (or in your terms, 'good in quality'), yet, those people mentioned above were disappointed. They mentioned certain problems such as cheap computer opponents, repetitive tracks, bad multiplayer battle mode, and control problems with the wheel controller. Oh and one thing to note, Brandt Mohney is a father that bought the game for his son (a perfect example of the demographic Nintendo was aiming for!) and both, he and his son were disappointed with that game.

    Of course, you or the other people might disagree with their opinions, but still, as you said, people have different opinions on things. However, that still doesn't null out the validity of those counter-examples that people buy those games supposedly for 'quality'. If people did buy Mario Wii Kart for quality in the long term sales period, then those disappointed consumers wouldn't have expressed such negativity along with problems that they found with the game in their reviews, right? What about the Wii Play game that continues to sell as of to this date? The majority of consumers that bought the Wii Play bundle are expressing disappointment and/or unsatisfaction with that game.

    And don't even dare say that there are biases in those opinions mentioned above. Those people have given well-thought out reasons as to why they didn't like the game themselves. You want to say that it's the consumers' fault for not liking the Mario Wii Kart game for whatever reason you have, then by all means, go ahead.

    I'm not going to agree or disagree with you here that Halo ODST is a bad game, but to assume that Halo ODST is a bad game based on overhype and sales alone is stupid. The evaluative quality of such games is in the minds of each consumer, and it varies from person to person. The consumer reviews on Mario Kart Wii that I cited exemplifies this.

    And what is that 'something' those consumers see in the Wii Fit software? Care to answer this one without being vague?

    Where is your source on this? Cite one.

    And also, all of the things you have said are quite premature. Unless you can quote either Sony or Microsoft that they "have no intentions of using the motion controllers onto those consoles", I would have to say that this is not a valid argument at all.

    What? You can't determine that 'Microsoft and Sony's direction with gaming will surely destroy video gaming altogether' from a Nintendo magazine! And also, you are using a source that is not independent at all! It's affiliated with Nintendo. Which means Nintendo has direct control over that outlet.

    How can you determine the future trends of other competitors just from one company? All you have given here are just Nintendo fans' opinions that don't prove or support your point; the only thing that can be inferred from those opinions or testimonials is their opinion only. Which shows how much those fans love Nintendo.

    I could pull out opinions and testimonials from Microsoft and Sony's websites and magazine too, but what would that prove? Absolutely jack shit!

    You know, I have posted the rules of the Debate board for you to show where you are going wrong, and its clear that you have chosen to blatantly ignore them. Again, your post shows that you didn't do enough research. You didn't look into the reasons of long-term sales; you just assumed that long-term sales are caused by 'good quality' of the product, when again, other factors also influence long-term sales as shown by my evidence and counter-examples.

    And the most appalling thing from you in this post is that you try to infer conclusions from fans' opinions. That is a non-sequitor logical fallacy (i.e. it does not follow). Fan's opinions do not solely dictate the fate of other competitors. Again, this exemplifies that all you are doing is assuming things without looking at the facts.
     
  19. ultra

    ultra Guest

    in that amazon review, i believe you forgot to mention the 528 people who gave the game a five star rating and only 14 people who gave it a 2 star rating. there are even recent reviews of the game from those people, http://www.amazon.com/Mario-Kart-Wii-Wheel-Nintendo/product-reviews/B000XJNTNS/ref=cm_cr_pr_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

    ---------------------------------------
    btw, where did you and that author assume that mario kart wii was aimed for little kids?
    here's a quote, "This game is so much fun. I'm an adult and love it. It's a great game to play when we have a few people over. Also, the Nintendo wi-fi connection allows us to race against from friends out of state. So much fun."
    did you forgot that the wii is for everybody. when nintendo makes games, they try to make it for everybody.

    ----------------------------------------
    appeal to audience. appeal means to attract and doesn't mean anything as you'll find out below. remember, in the long term of sales and in software, there will always be new appealing games that are released and that game will appeal more then the previous game. so how would you explain the constant sales of the same title over and over again when there are constantly new appealing games that are competing with that old game? the answer, there is quality in that old game they constantly bought in the long term. mario kart wii is still selling and there are more appealing games then mario kart wii. there are more appealing games then wii fit and yet wii fit still sells. in the ps3/360, one day you have gears of war 3, the next month or so you'll have a new halo 4, and the next month again bioshock 4, but how would you explains the constant sales of an old game when newer more appealing game is being released and are competing with the old game and that old game is still selling as opposed to the newer games.

    --------------------------------------
    kids are the toughest people to sell to. how do you entertain a child who has short attention span? i don't know how or why these game critics and game developers think it's easy to entertain children but they are not easily entertained.

    --------------------------------------
    sales mean money. money means it's something people want as you don't buy something you don't want unless you are hyped by it. if they don't want it, they go to gamestop or a used gamestore and redeem partial credit. this is what gamestop is for.

    ----------------------------------------
    microsoft and sony has a very dedicated consumer. if sony and microsoft is to leave or alienate those consumers, they will lose majority or all of them and will be left with nothing. the example here is to explain that microsoft and sony [sony is somewhat] has no intentions of integrating motion controller into the system as like nintendo's wii because it would piss the crap out of their loyal hardcore fan. take loony, asd and i think calvin as an example. they have from time to time in previous posts state that they hate motion controllers. they are sony and microsofts best consumer because the consumers on the 360/ps3 are hardcore gamers and loony, asd and calvin shows that they are hardcore gamers based on their reactions to motion controllers. this tells you that if sony and microsoft were to integrate motion controllers into their systems to become something like nintendo's wii, it would alienate them and they would feel violated. this in return would make loony, calvin and asd leave their consoles for other pursuits because their game console did something they didn't like. in essense, sony and microsoft is to either go to nintendo's audiences, which are hard to get because nintendo has made an establishment with them, or continue serving the hardcore. to get both, sony and microsoft will use motion controller as an add-on or peripheral to the system along with gimmick software in hopes that it'll somehow move some of the wii audience into sony or microsofts system. so sony and microsoft are still using dual analog as their main controller and the motion controller is just a peripheal add-on. and that is the gimmick. there is a book on this.

    ---------------------------------------
    when i mentioned about that nintendo magazine comment, it's to show you that there are no seniors playing the 360/ps3 but during the nes days there were seniors playing the nes just as how today you have seniors playing the wii. where is the "everybody" audience in the 360/ps3? there isn't none and that means gaming has become pushed away to a point that people don't care or that there is little interest. this is to tell you that if nintendo wasn't involved, sony and microsoft would have killed gaming. remember that iwata quote i gave. it is from a nintendo magazine, but it doesn't construde the arguement that i am trying to make. the sales of the wii shows you that gaming has been revived because there is so much sales of the wii. everyone is interested again because gaming has become for everybody from kids to seniors. if you look at the ds, it is such a great handheld system because there is software for everyone from kids to seniors. if you look at the psp, there is only software for a niche and that is what the 360/ps3 is, a niche and are getting smaller and smaller.

    ---------------------------------------
    "I could pull out opinions and testimonials from Microsoft and Sony's websites and magazine too, but what would that prove?"

    you can but you need to make sure that it's according to your arguement. when i posted that nintendo magazine letter to the editor, it was to show that gaming has become for an elite. so there is no bias. so i am in the clear. however, you may find it more difficult then i.
     
  20. Littlekill

    Littlekill Well-Known Member

    I have evidence that proves that the PS3 is the best console of all time.



























    Pokemon
     
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