1. This forum is in read-only mode.

Piracy Vs Buying Second-Hand Games

Discussion in 'Debates' started by gaynorvader, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. gaynorvader

    gaynorvader Well-Known Member

    Piracy is illegal in many countries because (as far as I can make out) people pirating games are not giving the company who made said game money for using their product.
    Buying/Selling second-hand games is legal in most, if not all, these countries. Why? Is it not the exact same outcome as pirating games? The purchaser of a second-hand game now owns that game and has not given the company who made it any money for their product.

    This seems like another double standard to me, and one I feel either makes piracy morally fine or buying/selling second-hand games morally wrong, depending on which side of the fence you fall on.
  2. lewis9191

    lewis9191 Well-Known Member

    Piracy takes it when it is new so they receive no money

    Buying second hand still means one copy has sold.
  3. damanali

    damanali Well-Known Member

    I believe second-hand buying and selling is legal because the said product has already been compensated for. The Labor, raw materials and marketing cost has already been paid for in the first place. But if you pirate the stuff, the other products that hasn't been sold yet are not being compensated, ergo, its a lost to the company that has already paid for the labor, raw materials and marketing cost to produce their products.

    Unless the system is like, Made-to-order, then there is no lost for the company.
  4. Loonylion

    Loonylion Administrator Staff Member

    I believe game publishers consider games sold second hand to be a lost sale as well. I'm pretty sure selling second hand games would be illegal if they could get away with making it so.
  5. gaynorvader

    gaynorvader Well-Known Member

    What's the difference though between someone not buying copy #43877 because they pirated it and somone not buying copy #43877 because they're buying copy #2345 second hand? At the end of the day copy #43877 is still unsold.
  6. lewis9191

    lewis9191 Well-Known Member

    Nothing, but buying second hand is still better for game companies.
  7. gaynorvader

    gaynorvader Well-Known Member

    How so? In what way is it more beneficial for them?
  8. lewis9191

    lewis9191 Well-Known Member

    Look at your post. I have already explained. For it to be second hand one legit copy would have to be bought.

    Although piracy requires one person to buy it and obviously upload.
  9. gaynorvader

    gaynorvader Well-Known Member

    But the company still only sells one copy. An example:
    -Jim buys a copy of Diablo 4 for $50, Activision Blizzard make $10 off the sale.
    -Jim sells his copy of Diablo 4 to Gamestop for $20, Activision Bllizzard make $0 off the sale.
    -Larry buys the copy of Diablo 4 from Gamestop second hand for $40, Activision Blizzard make $0 off the sale.
    -Jane buys a pirated copy of Diablo 4 for $10, Activision Blizzard makes $0 off the sale.

    The game company only makes money when Jim buys the game first hand. It makes the exact same amount of money from the pirated copy as the copy Larry bought second hand. In fact, Jane might go out and buy the game as she probably will run into problems playing Diablo 4 online with her pirated copy.
  10. lewis9191

    lewis9191 Well-Known Member

    Yes, they made no money from larry but for larry to buy the game they would of had a jim being a legit one.

    i drew a picture to help


    i use a touchpad and its past twelve
  11. gaynorvader

    gaynorvader Well-Known Member

    Unless it went:
    New game->Jim->GS->Larry->GS->Bob->Alice->GS->Troy->Michael->Anne->etc.
    Game companies still "lose out" on the sales from Larry, Bob, Alice, Troy, Michael, Anne, etc. Exactly as if they had pirated them, but pirating has the advantage (from the game companies' point of view) of being illegal, inaccessible to the less technical-minded end user and missing the online support\ play-ability that the second hand game owner enjoys.
    Also presumably with piracy:
    New game->Crackers->{probably about 10-100 times the amount of users a second hand game would see}
    So, by your logic, the game company still makes its money on that first game sold. Tbh, I'd imagine the crackers would also buy several games, but I'm unsure on that point.
  12. lewis9191

    lewis9191 Well-Known Member

    You lost me when you started making up name

    Even if 100 uses the same copy of the game, its still sold one copy

    When someone has pirated a *new* game no money goes to companies.

    Also more people buy 2nd hand games then pirate them
  13. gaynorvader

    gaynorvader Well-Known Member

    What about the initial game(s) they bought in order to pirate it?

    [quote author=Justbeinghonest]
    Also more people buy 2nd hand games then pirate them
    That's kind of my point, the people buying second hand games are as big a problem to the sales of a game, if not more so than people getting pirated copies. People who buy pirated copies of a game often end up losing out on features for a little while (SCII being an example which springs to mind), and so might be motivated to buy the game new (or second hand), whereas someone who buys the game second hand has all of the features the game has to offer as they have a 'legal' copy of the game, despite never paying a penny to the game company.
  14. markswan

    markswan Well-Known Member

    What gaynorcader is saying is that if people didn't have the option to buy games second-hand (and either wouldn't or couldn't pirate the game), they would be forced to buy new copies (which would net the publishers and developers money).
    The publishers and developers don't get a share of the profits from used-game sales, just as they wouldn't from piracy, so whether the customer pirates a game or buys it second-hand the devs and publisher make the same amount: nothing.

    This is why developers and publishers are pushing for downloadable games and downloadable content more and more; it means that they get paid every time someone buys their games, and that people don't have the option to buy downloads from a third party (although piracy is still an option, obviously).
  15. Void

    Void Well-Known Member

    Well, I mean, they sell one copy anyway. Someone has to purchase the game to rip it, it doesn't magically show up online. Maybe the amount of copies sold to rental stores far and wide is financially significant. And I'm sure that more people download a single uploaded .iso than people rent a single copy of a game from a video store. But one copy is definitely sold.

    Edit: oh yeah. The selfish part of me prefers piracy because, a: there isn't a lazy rental store profiting lazily off the material of others and b: I get to play it for more than 48 hours. The rest of me doesn't give a fuck because I don't rent games or even play them very often for that matter but I can see why piracy could be considered more detrimental to the industry (but really just in an exaggerated fashion compared to renting).
  16. calvin_0

    calvin_0 Well-Known Member

    for Piracy, one game is sold to be rip off for people to make copy off. the person who rip the game still own that copy.

    when come to second hand game, one copy is sold, but that same copy is being sold over to a 2nd person and the seller no longer have that copy. so if the seller for whatever reason want back that game he\she would have to buy another copy either new or second hand from another person.

    Piracy = everyone own that one copy of that game
    Second hand = only one person own of that game.

    piracy is more harmful then second hand because of that reason. the only reason second hand is allowed is because (correct me if i'm wrong) in the law when a person purchase an object of value, that person become the sole owner of that said object and he or she is free to do whatever they want to that object.

    sure when some to second hand, the developer still get nothing, but remember that same concept apply to car manufacturer, i doubt nissan will get anything if i buy a second hand GTR32. and what about that second hand house my friend just brought, do you think the original developer that build that house get anything from it?
  17. msg2009

    msg2009 Romulations sexiest member

    For everyone that owns it 2nd hand, one original copy has been sold. That game is only sold by the developer once but only one person has it at once.
    With piracy less copies are sold because people just download instead of buying that original.
  18. Suiseiseki

    Suiseiseki Well-Known Member

    Here's a better question: would every single person who pirates a game have bought it if piracy did not exist? And if "no", then why do people consider every pirated copy to be a "lost sale"?

    Thing is, a lost sale is bullshit, the whole concept is a lie based around the assumption that a quota of games will be sold. You can't treat a sale as a commodity, you can't LOSE a sale if you never got it in the first place. I would never have bought Just Cause 2. I pirated it recently for shits and giggles. How can that be considered a lost sale if I never would have spent that money in the first place?
  19. Rayder

    Rayder Well-Known Member

    I firmly believe that more people buy used games than there are people who pirate games for personal use. At least money isn't changing hands when a person downloads a game, unlike how game stores profit from selling used games.

    I'm actually kinda surprised that the various companies that produce and publish games haven't forced some kind of legislation on places like Gamestop to pay a percentage to them when a used copy is sold. They get payed a percentage when a NEW copy is sold, the same system could (and should) be applied to the used copies too.

    Piracy cuts out all facets of the industry, but used games sales only cut out the people who created the game. If you ask me, how used games sales work now is actually MORE devious than straight-up piracy because games stores are profiting while the developer/publisher gets nothing. Pirates, on the other hand, tend to only pirate for personal use, not for monetary gain.

    I don't think piracy is nearly as big of a problem, or on as massive of a scale, as the used game industry. If game stores were forced to pay a percentage to game developers/publishers every time a used game was sold, then game developers/publishers would get a huge boost in profits and the focus on lost profits from piracy would shrink considerably.
  20. calvin_0

    calvin_0 Well-Known Member

    well if you happen to visit malaysia, let me know and i'll personally show you where to purchase pirated PSP game... yes PSP game that available for free on the internet.. people sell those here and there is sucker who buy them.

    but again malaysia is pirate heaven, you can get everything pirated here. my friend have a pirated lancer evo 3 (basically a modified local car to look like evo 3)