creationist vs evolutionists debate, the big one.

Well thanks loonlion for picking me up on that one, you are correct and I did get that bit wrong. And I do appreciate that being pointed out so I don't make the same mistake again and look like a bigger idiot.

However he DID constantly question his own theories, and I would like to clafiry that at no time did I say he was or wasn't persecuted by anybody else. That was something you said, and I did not oppose, argue or even comment on it in any way. I was speaking of his own mind challenging himself constantly. How else would he have come up with what he did. A fluke? Good luck?
No, he was a seeker of knowledge. He did not ever just pick one opinion and say that's it, i'm right and there's nothing else to find out. He constantly challenged himself which is why his thoughts and ideas may have been seen at one time or another as 'whacky' during his time. I really don't think he would give a rats if someone thought he was. I believe it never would have stopped him questioning, and in fact probably facilitated it lol. He debated himself all his life, being the devil's advocate, disproving his own theories again and again, and in the end, he did basically debate himself to death. He also considered everything that was presented to him as a possibility. A possiblity of what? Whatever might present if he gave it the opportunity to do so. His thinking was purely seeker of knowledge so EVERYTHING presents something of value, if you choose to look. Not about WHO is right and WHO is wrong, about what is and what isn't, and endless possibilities of what could be.

With the ease of technology today, we don't have to face our own thoughts if we choose not to. I find this has a big impact on the ability to express ideas, opinions, or indeed to consider other's ideas or opinions. If we repress opinions what do we achieve? The art of communication is dying the more technologically advanced the communication industry is becoming. The more clever we become, the more stupid we are able to act!

Take us for example. I'm lying in bed using a lappy on the other side of the world, talking about perspective and thought provoking, and my motivation was to spark some new thoughts. I used some interesting examples of people and events to stimulate thought to lead to ... who knows?

Apparently for you it only led to my mistake (i still havnt slept in 48 hrs so be nice) which I truly thank you for. I cherish opportunities to learn. However I find myself unable to find your intent, motivation or grounding to add to this debate in your response. You have given us some facts that we may or may not know, and thank you for that. But did you try to challenge your thinking at all or was your post just to put me in my place? I know you are also tired as you told me hours ago you were going to go to bed and your still here lol. So maybe, just maybe, you might have missed my intent and therefore didn't look for the motivation and grounding in what I was writing?
Did you challenge yourself in the validity in the basis of your argument about public persecution of stupidity towards Einstein with somebody who did not make a statement regarding this at all?

Your perception of what I wrote is somewhat different to my motivation, grounding, and therefore the message of my intent has been lost. Yes, I made a mistake. People do that sometimes. That however does not invalidate every other thought or opinion I convey. It in itself creates an opportunity for furthar exploration. Exactly as it has been able to do so for me right now.

My intention was to inject a slightly different perspective into a discussion that had become purely emotive. One where instead of pointing out and focussing on flaws, recognizing this as an opportunity which has been presented to you, so take it and explore for what is hiding behind them. THAT's what makes life so interesting and colourful and full of wonder and opportunities to explore. That's what allows for people like Einstein to engage in a life of exploration and seeking of knowledge. And I don't doubt for one second that you would be able to see an opportunity for some form of discussion and debate in some of the things I touched on. Instead of quoting from a book, challenge yourself and then you have the real debate.

Hi gaynorvador,
Yes it is a very flexible religion, one that is practical aplication throughout ones' life. The fundamental belief is that your god and my god are the same, he just has many manifestations. And again, its about accepting and contributing to the keeping of the balance. Go about your daily activities in such a way as to not negatively affect anyone else, and if possible, to enrich life in some way.
But, honeslty I wasn't trying to spark a religious debate, we'll be on to politics next lol. I was merely trying to point out that the within the debate itself there is so much room for more exploration yet we are so far from being able to explore it on a different level. To me at least, globally it seems to always come down to christian faith in the bible against science. How come there's no more room at the Inn for all the little people to get locked out lol. There are more muslims in our world than any other religion. I guess the nature of where many large populations of muslims live does not allow for many of them to partake in such a debate. Just an example, I probably picked a poor one given the current global tension surrounding this particular faith.

And that's where my seeker of knowledge comes in. So, if they don't come to the debate, I took the debate to them! Go into another world, live it, breathe it, and let yourself be tought something you don't know. It doesn't mean you agree with it, or that it is right for you, but it DOES mean you will be left challenging your beliefs, and perhaps asking questions of yourself you had never even thought of before. It means you've learned there is other ways of living lives so remote from ours, it makes you realise the big questions such as this one, has so much more involved in it than is usually discussed. So many facets that in actual fact, nothing can be completely ruled out. Impossibilites do not exist.

And you know what everyone gets at the end? A broader awareness of their own life, and the ability to be able to respect each others beliefs. Discuss, Debate, sure. But never ever Dismiss.

I do apologise if I gave off the impression I wanted to spark a religious debate between which religion is better than the other, as I would never be so disrespectful to any person's religious beliefs to bring that into this forum.


I apologise also for another terribly long post, theology tends to do that to me, as does lack of sleep lol. I will leave you with these two final thoughts and I promise not to post again today.

1. Saying 'I didn't do anything wrong' is diametrically opposed to the motivation in saying 'I absolutely did the right thing'

2. Not making a choice is actually one of the most common choices made every day. You choose to throw your hands in the air and say ' leave it to fate and see where it leads me' with the belief that you can't choose. You just did.

PERSPECTIVE

 

I'm laughing my ass off. That's knocking it on the head lol.

And agaiin, I apologise if I've stirred debate within the fanctions of Christianity, let's not bicker abou' 'oo killed 'oo (uh oh...monty p is taking over again...) jehova! jehova!!

(I'm gonna be in twubble.....) but at least I go down with a giggle...

 

I have honestly never met a Christian who took everything in the Bible as literal... Is that odd?

 

no

think what you like, believe what you like, interpret the bible how you like. i'm not bothering any more as you are only looking at the negative in anything i say.

if you'd been around longer and read through many of my posts you'd know i don't attack people (well sometimes it seems that way) if an atheist is spouting shit i will throw in ideas about god and the bible and faith to show them it doesn't have to be so black and white and i do the same the same with Christians although "true" Christians would argue that it is black and white and the bible is "truth"

i'm to tired for this now i'll come back and talk more once i'm not so sleepy

 

I was thinking way tl;dr and when I saw some unpleasantness I skipped to just comment this about the Creation story:

Right, in the Bible the creation stories have too many contradictions and too many random bits that don't fit.
For example the kids of 'adam and eve', they supposedly had a kid and they went to the land of nod and they got married when there isn't meant to be other people, there were meant to be the kids and 'adam and eve' so some place came out of nowhere with no reason or explanation which contradicts the story and messes it up, so you should know that the people who wrote the book didn't have a full barrell if ya know what I mean?

 

its because the bible is a compilation or many different scriptures from many different faiths, religions, ideologues and stories that's why it is so mashed up and wishy washy

 

And that's why it is inaccurate and shouldn't be thought to be serious, it'd like a compilation of fictions, that is why the bible is lies

 

Thumb up for nunya_bizniss. I certainly would prefer if we all took the time and see things in perspective and with an open mind. What disappoints me is that EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS THREAD always ends up in bickering between atheists and Christians. Not just on Romulation, but every other site our there.

Either that, or I totally miss the point of these debates.

 

but the reason it happens like that is because those people are Christians and atheists because for christianity you need faith to believe in something that has no evidence to it and atheists won't even look at it from a perspective of having faith because ity has no evidence so they end up arguing.
even more so because Christians think the bible is evidence when their book and the history of it only show evidence of it being a man made story and nothing more.

the only time there is people who can look at thing differently like nunya who's faith basically is a ? without single specific book to tell you what to do and says we don't know everything and my god and your god are the same we just look at him differently.
or agnostic which say i don't know and have no idea of knowing but i don't believe in god but as with everything it could be possible so i will look at things objectively.

 

I'm back, and I'd have to say that the debate hasn't really changed much. The basic gist of the debate is the Bible was made by man, and evolution is an undeniable fact.

Look, everything I say in this debate is all opinion. Back to my previous comment...Just because we say that Radiocarbon dating can date for 60,000 years, and even if formulas and everything SEEM to support it, there is always the possibility that it is flawed and can only date back a couple hundred years. Or that something could have caused it to be thrown off, some anomoly, if you will. Before you say that I'm some blind follower of the Bible, this is how I've always looked at reality and science in general. I see everything as being a theory. This is in large part due to my watching so much anime and videogames all the while of growing up. I've gained a mind that is not bound by 'reality' or 'common sense'. this also causes others to see me as 'stupid' or 'crazy'.

I do not believe in evolution, and I believe that God created the Earth in six days. I will also say that one of the posters was right in saying that God did not create the world for us, or us for him. We were created for his son.

I know that everyone will probably reply to me being 'ignorant', but this is my belief, and I find nothing ignorant about it. I just see things in a much different light than others.

Remember, debates are about discussing your beliefs not trying to ramroad your ideas onto others, like this thread has been seriously practicing.

 

not so true

it may seem like we cram things in to the faces of those who still choose to believe blindly in something that disproves its self even without the aid of science but we don't its just you don't want to hear anything that discredits your god and get offended.

you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone the difference is its not a debate because you state your belief and do not support your opinion with unbiased evidence or even why you believe what you believe.

 

I believe in creation.

But there is no way to prove how it happened one way or another. Whatever happened, happened a long long time ago.

I guess I am content to exist, however that might have come about.

 

I did use unbiased evidence. Look, it's not that i feel 'threatened' or 'offended', I am plenty prepared to deal with criticism. It's just that much of this talk has been "Evolution is fact, and creationists are ignorant to believe otherwise". That's pretty much been the context of this 'debate'. Which is not 'unbiased evidence', when evolution is still a theory. Yet people still prefer to masquerade it as a fact.

I can't give you hard evidence that God exists, or that the world was created, partially because I've not taken the time to seriously study how to scientifically prove and or disprove theories out there as I have much else to do. Also because, yes, religion is mainly based on faith. That's the way God intended it to be. That way he can get TRUE followers, and not just mindless puppets.

If you ask me for evidence I will have to go to the Bible, that's my 'history book' so to speak. So, that's why I use it. I also believe that even after thousands of years, that book still is what it was back then, and has not lost the message from so far back.

Since my 'history book' tells me that the world was created in 6 days, then I will believe it. If I were to believe in evolution, it would have to be evolution that resulted in six days time, as in 144 hours or 8640 minutes. But, it would also have to mean that Adam was created in one day, as man was created on the sixth day. So, that would mean evolution would have had to occurred in less than 24 hours time. I find this more perplexing than the regular theory of creation, and am confused as to why people try to combine the two.

I am not saying that 'evolution' in and of itself does not exist, or did not exist, I am merely stating that evolution was not the process which brought humanity to this Earth. I believe in micro-evolution (at least I believe that is what it is called), as there is much evidence to it. But, to believe that humans were formed from anything but God's hands is just ludicrous in my opinion. There is too much perfection, and synchrousity with everything for it to have been created by random events.

Look, coming from someone who has played videogames and watched anime all their life telling them that 'God' is wrong, you must know that I do not believe what I believe because of 'blind faith'. It's a culmination of everything I've seen in life. And, I will admit that God seems pretty cruel and heirarchal at first, but after you really get to know him, you learn just how kind and just he is. You also learn that God is the only true proponent of equality. I'm sure very few will agree with me on that I bet xD

So, after hopefully having read all that, you can understand better why I choose creation vs evolution, and why I think this debate has turned a little sour. But, that's why they always tell you 'never bring religion into a debate'. It always turns into something not so friendly. Disagree with me if you want, that's your opinion. Goodness knows there's plenty of scientific evidence out there for evolution too.

 

i will disagree with you that's about the only thing you got right

NUMBER 1

the bible (new testament) is not a history book!!!! for the love of Jesus Christ man do some research i have and you know what it misrepresents most if not all any shred of historical truth. if you actually look at history you will see how many things have been manipulated by those that wanted to create the christian religion.
i would go in to this more but you'll never take in anything i say.

NUMBER 2

genesis the story of creation is......... oh i give up on that one too go ahead and believe it you might as well if your that stupid

NUMBER 3

this statement "evolution is just a theory" drive me nuts and proves to me further that you are a fool and know nothing about science
all science is called "theory" dip shit go to school and the "its just a theory" thing is miss quoting science something that creationist love to do!

we call it theory because science does not claim to know all and takes on the ability to be proven wrong if stronger evidence comes along and even welcomes it so we can carry on the great quest for knowledge
and in fact evolution is one of the best supported "theories" ever

sorry for flaming you but its not about opinion its about knowledge and you sound like all you've done to learn about the world is watch a creationist sermon that greatly misquotes just about everything we know and retards the people that watch them that like when you speak to me and say things like "micro-evolution" and "its JUST a theory" fuck off man bring some more to the table because the bible is not a history book and your words are foolish and you stupidity offends me

but i just its not your fault as it is what you have been taught so i'll forgive your foolishness hey what would Jesus do eh!

i respect you that you stick to your guns and believe in the bible completely as that's what it asks of you and its tough to do in the modern world but i don't respect your blatant lack of knowledge surrounding science and history trying to enter a debate.

oh and its not turned sour it never started because anyone on the creationist side is still yet to bring anything of any sustenance to the table to debate.

 

What is the difference between an idea and a belief?

I have lots of ideas about the world, where we come from, are their aliens, who is the best guitarist of all time, etc. I am not so silly to think that my ideas are important to anyone else without talking to lots of people and seeing what they think. Then I may change my ideas or stick with them. Other people may think I am nuts or wonderful for my ideas but that does not make them good or stupid ideas. The wonderful thing about ideas is we all have them, some are daft, some are amazing, but they are all (at the very least) ours, and as they are ours we can change them and mess about with them as we please.

An idea may bring on some fantastic scientific discovery or it may lead to us trapping polar bears in a cupboard just to see what happens.

A belief is a dead end. Beliefs have no room for change or criticism. "I believe in creationism to explain the world" is equal to "I believe we are evolving into space reptiles". The worst thing about a belief is that, unlike an idea, YOU never had it. YOU never will have an original belief, but you can have original ideas.

Within a discusion of creationism 'v' evolution a problem occurs when some religious and scientific people take a fundamentalist approach. To say something is correct because you read it in a book is ignorant and does no service to religion or to science.

I would imagine that very few thinking scientists would hold any one book on evolution as being the whole truth about evolution, a good biologist looks at as much evidence as can be found before having some new ideas. Many religious people do the same.

Some people in religions do think; for example some Christians do not think the biblical creation story is a factual record of events, this does not mean they are less of a Christian than a fundamentalist. A bible believing Christian is a sad reflection on Christianity as they pin spirituality on their relationship to a book and not to the world around them.

On reflection I think religion has much to add to the story of man, such as the beautiful idea of the churning of the sea of stars (Hindu myth) creating the milky way. I think that stories can be marvelous ways of understanding the world.

 

That isn't completely true. You yourself gave a good example of an original belief (as far as I know) about evolving into reptiles. Just to back up my point, I could say I believe in a giant space monkey named King Monko-McMonk of Planet Monki and his Mother ship will arrive in two months. Now, I'm pretty damn sure no one else has thought of that or in any way believes those events will occur. This is also an idea but as I said before, I may believe it to be true, thus, it's an original belief. Beliefs don't just pop out of the air. Beliefs are born from ideas.

 

Evolution is a theory... you'd have to be an idiot to believe it! There are so many contraditcions and facts we are fed that don't make any sense.

The idea of natural selection sounds great when considering deer. The deer that can sense danger the quickest and run the fastest are able to escape the predator on a more consistent basis. However, other examples on the evolutionary tree have many laughable flaws. One of the best is the thought that a bird began to evolve a wing. Why this would occur is not answered by evolutionists. The wing stub did not make the bird more adaptable in his environment. The wing was much too small for the bird to fly. Why would a bird evolve a wing that was useless? This is backwards from the evolutionary natural selection concept that birds adapt and change in order to survive better in their environment. The bird with a half-size wing is placed at a disadvantage in its environment. Why would the bird continue for millions of generations improving a wing that was useless? The theory of evolution is based on natural selection of the most adaptable member of a species. A bird with a useless wing is at a severe disadvantage and the opposite from natural selection. According to natural selection the members of the bird species with the smallest useless wing would be the most adaptable and most likely to survive in the largest numbers. According to the theory of natural selection birds could never evolve to fly. Evolution is simply nonsense. This is so funny. We are then led to believe that some birds got tired of carrying around a worthless half-size wing so they grew fingers on the end to help climb trees. The wings became arms and a new species was developed. This makes no fucking sense!

I wish you guys would seriously challenge your beliefs because you may believe this but when you hear the specifics, its almost impossible to believe that so many people follow this concept.

I challenge you to give some legitimate proof that creation never happened.

 

someone didnt study...... theory of the evolution is backup with solid proof of fossil record and genetic record (DNA)

they found many fossile of life that for a link to every other life, example is they found a dinosour with bird like feature, which support the idea of dinosour evolve into bird.

they also found a similarity in human DNA compare to other ape which support the idea of human and ape share the same ancestor

IIRC the only weakness of the theroy is

1. fossile can only be form under certain condition, so not every living thing will become fossilise when they die, and they will be lost from fossile record.

2. there is still alot of part in the DNA that we dont know what it does.

plus its much wise to belive in a thoery because theory can be disproof or back with evidence that support it unlike religios text which neither can be disproof or back with evidence, for example I can claim Snow White is god, can you disproof me otherwise? i guess not.

thats why Creationism or Intelligen Design is not a theory, its call a mumbo jumbo.